Nemo
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Post by Nemo on Aug 12, 2014 4:22:36 GMT -8
Well PM me when you would like to start and any other details you'd like and we'll take it from there.
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Will Sontir
The Jedi Order
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Post by Will Sontir on Aug 12, 2014 21:38:18 GMT -8
sorry guys, comp caught a virus. been trying to work it out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 22:12:50 GMT -8
Alrighty guys,
I think it's time we had a unified discussion as Jedi about this whole situation regarding the Senate. So far there seems to be some varying opinions about what has happened and where things are going, so it's time to formally cement how everyone feels and get a general idea of where we are going to take things.
So far, the options that have been presented are that either the Jedi and Republic entirely join together or split apart. One of the most prominent issues thus far, has been an apparent lack of clarity when it comes to what either faction can and cannot do, thus creating a great deal of ambiguity. So i'll get this rolling first with my view and opinion of this situation:
"What we've got here is failure to communicate"
- Captain (Cool Hand Luke, 1967)
Frankly, this whole situation has suffered from an extreme lack of communication and proper forethought and discussion between, and with, all affected parties. What was originally proposed as a fairly closed SL between two people, has quite honestly become a clusterfuck of a planetary battle proportion, mostly in part due to how in the dark the majority of Jedi have been this entire time. From what I can tell, it seems that the Republic (Crom'nen, Cihlbar/Sontir, and Darma) at least were in discussions amongst themselves and with Mahir to set up this 'reconciliation' SL for a little while now, without broaching the subject with the wider Jedi community, only bringing us in when the SL was about to go down.
Which brings me to one of the biggest problems, being that there has been a lack of communication between our two groups, especially when it comes to planning SLs and making up for people who have gone MIA and/or stopped posting. Going forward, we need to make sure there is some more constant communication, which both this OOC Planning Thread and the Republic's OOC Thread should help accomplish for the future. What happened on Ryloth, and this current Senate meeting are both good examples of where some better communication could have helped avoid any misunderstandings.
"I can only protect you, I cannot fight a war for you"
- Qui-Gon Jinn (Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace, 1999)
What become clear in the Senate hearing, was that there was some ambiguity about whether or not the Jedi were in charge of leading Republic Fleets/Armies, with the point being made that the Chancellor could issue Field Commissions to Jedi. Assuming a State of War was declared, and the General incharge of the Republic Soldiers accompanying a Jedi was killed, I could perhaps see this happening, but otherwise the Jedi should be kept out of directly ordering a Republic Fleet or Army, the Jedi can act as advisors, but that is where the line should be drawn. Historically the Jedi have been Peace Keepers, kind of like Galactic Police per-say. They go out and assess a situation, and if they can handle it by themselves, that is what they do. But should they find a situation that requires bigger guns, then they call in the Army, which assumes jurisdiction of the situation once they arrive.
"Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third..."
- Bud Abbott (Who's On First?, 1937 - onwards)
So where do I think things should stand between the two factions? Well from an OOC perspective, I would like to see the Jedi work alongside the Republic, just as they have done so in Canon. But I do not think the two factions should merge together and become one, the Jedi and Republic are two very distinct and different organizations, but that does not mean we cannot work together, assuming of course we have a properly laid out agreement that makes neither side subservient to the other.
The basics would be a seperation of Military, meaning the Republic is responsible for their Fleet and Army Command, whilst the Jedi would be in command of their own fleets and armies, although the Jedi forces would be of considerably smaller size then what the Republic could muster, for obvious reasons. Jurisdiction of a situation remains with the Jedi, so long as a Republic Task Force is not present, at which point the Jedi become advisors to the situation. But that does not mean that the Jedi have to strictly follow every order given by the Senate or Republic Military Command, as Allies, we are able to ignore an order given to us by the Republic, within reason (such as if it goes against the Jedi Code). The Jedi should still have a liason, or two, to the Military Committee so that the "Police" and "Army" can direct operations more smoothly between the two.
Now, the accute observers amongst you will have noticed that I specifically wrote OOC perspective before, with regards to my comments. From an IC perspective, Rawkill is going to have a hard time correlating my feelings from an OOC standpoint to an IC one, since Crom'nen basically admitted to being behind why the Mandalorians attacked Kuat, even if the other choice was Corellia, which in and of itself is a war crime, and to top it off the Military Council (which includes the Vice Chancellor) knew of this operation.
Whilst one could attempt to argue that the ends justify the means (although, putting 3.6 Billion people of Kuat in danger, compared to Corellia's 3 Billion, is a slight stretch to justify), considering the Republic then refused aid to Kuat and other Dark Tide worlds, and essentially caused the formation of the Galactic Empire, thus giving rise to their own enemy, Rawkill is going to have a hard time trusting the current Military Committee, and the Senate, so long as the actions of the Military Committee go unpunished. Honestly, it's a good thing the Empire has become quite dormant of late, otherwise the Republic would have had the entire Empire knocking on Coruscant's door within a week...
"Th-th-th-that's all folks!"
- Porky Pig (Looney Tunes, ????)
Well that's my thoughts on the situation, and how it could be resolved if the majority agree. Of course, that does not mean that someone else could come up with a better idea for resolving the situation and coming up with a different "agreement" for how the Jedi and Republic should interact in the future. Just to make it clear though, these are MY thoughts and opinions on the matter, they are NOT final decisions, so feel free to expand upon these ideas I have presented, or come up with your own.
I will say one thing in closing: I do not think it was any "halfway crap" that got us in trouble in the first place, as Crom'nen belives. For me, it was RPers just up and leaving during RPs, the Site Crash, and the fact both the Republic and Jedi were short on Writers, most especially during the Mando Holy War. If anything, drawing things out like this has not particularly helped, but hey, shit happens, we just gotta deal with it and move on.
So put in your opinion, and please make sure it is something constructive, and please don't attack someone else's view on a point-by-point basis, if you disagree with them, then say you disagree and state your point of view. One thing that this does not need to become, is a sludgefest between a couple, or group, of people because they hold polarizing viewpoints. I think we can be civil enough to discuss this, without trading blows, but, If you feel you can't do that, then please refrain from posting and perhaps discuss your ideas with someone who might be able to present them without things going off the rails.
Until this is properly worked out though, I would suggest further discussions in the Senate Rotunda be put on hold.
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Ael Jade
The Jedi Order - Corellian Jedi Academy
Posts: 1,544 
Affiliation: Corellian Jedi Order
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Post by Ael Jade on Aug 27, 2014 14:57:26 GMT -8
Very nice.
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Post by Jedi Knight Mahir on Aug 27, 2014 19:05:10 GMT -8
Challenge accepted:
OOC: I don't want a super faction, I just want the two distinct groups to be able to function as a cohesive unit when necessary, like any classic duo. I don't want orders from politicians, and I don't want vanilla underlings. I want two groups of writers that can join forces to present a formidable force in whatever arena we find ourselves in, working side by side. I like the ideas Rawkill has put out as far as rolls go, and I agree the biggest contributor to the whole thing was RPers vanishing mid SL. Crom and I carried on as best we could, with Dred for most of the SL, and the only way we could see things playing out without either of us being untrue to our characters was this trial. I admit, I should have communicated with everyone else here what was going on instead of just being content to write my own story and let everyone sort the flak and fallout latter. Sorry, I honestly just didn't feel like adding more to an already full plate for the council, since Mer was everywhere at once, and Rawkill was busy rebuilding Yavin and most of the rest of us were doing our own thing anyway, so far as I could see. (I'm near sighted by the way, in case that wasn't obvious) I hope to be able to collaborate with others and help get this mess cleaned up as soon as possible, since I made it, or a significant portion of it any way.
IC: Shihab want's to address the council in the temple on Coruscant. He wants to apologize for the scandal he brought to the order and officially offer his withdrawal from the order, if the council should deem it a fitting punishment for his actions. He also would like to request permission to be assigned to Ryloth as a watchman to assist in the rebuilding of relations and the city of Lessu. He thinks that the jedi should be more aware of the local politics and day-to-day life styles of the sentients they serve, but knows that any decisions about the order are the council's prerogative, not his.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 8:36:28 GMT -8
The politicians of the Republic should not be giving orders to the Jedi, instead they should be requesting the Council to handle tasks that the Republic would not be able to accomplish on their own. Considering Crom was essentially the Go to guy for the Republic for some time, before others began trickling in, having the Jedi around to help this old man across the street is a burden off our shoulders as we smooth out the kinks. I don't know how either side had garnered this self aggrandized image of themselves, but in canon and the past, both the Republic and the Jedi were essential pillars in each other's continued existence.
Granted, with the myopic view of a forum, such things merit little concern because of reason A and B. Yet this old man would like to see such a prosperous relationship return to the generalized setting of JvS, so we both can move onto greater things like the enjoyment of writing together.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 16:36:09 GMT -8
May the light embrace you my fellow Brothers and Sisters,
I'll try not to distract you too much from your rather important discussion, but I figured i should drop a line in here. I imagine if you've been following my couple posts so far, you'll already get the gist of what I'm going to say in here. Basically, my idea for The Th'tremsi is to be the lightsided equivalent of what the Sith Species were for the darkside, in that they'll be the fighting force, so to speak, for the Jedi. It is an idea, and one I won't try force on to anyone, but I thought it might be an awesome idea that other people might like to incorporate once things are all sorted out and settled down.
Remain vigilant,
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Palo Torsh
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Post by Palo Torsh on Aug 28, 2014 17:18:27 GMT -8
"Jedi don't really serve the Republic." —Meetra Surik to Xaart on Onderon in 3951 BBY.
Though new to the RP and unaware of the previous conflicts, I respectfully oppose merging the factions. I would support the cannon system in place during the Mandalorian Wars, when the Republic could petition/ask the Jedi for their assistance, if needed, and either the whole faction, specific jedi council, planetary order, or individual jedi would decide whether or not to participate.
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Mike Frantz
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Post by Mike Frantz on Aug 29, 2014 22:06:56 GMT -8
So because my good friend Rawkill likes lots of words I'm going to attempt to shorten it so people like me (who get easily confused with long sentences) can catch up.
From what It looks like basically it looks like as an order we would like to be "separate but equal" with the republic. We can ask for things and they can ask for things but neither of us can order around any of the other's stuff.
Is that what we are looking at here?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 23:45:36 GMT -8
Mike has the right of it. We'll give it a couple more days to allow people to object, if no one objects, then we can probably get something written up that codifies it all and send it the Republic's way and move on with our lives.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2014 13:12:24 GMT -8
I have drafted such a document and will attempt to get feedback before submitting it for the official record in the Jedi Order
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Ael Jade
The Jedi Order - Corellian Jedi Academy
Posts: 1,544
Affiliation: Corellian Jedi Order
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Post by Ael Jade on Sept 1, 2014 16:25:41 GMT -8
Agree with the above people. Negotiations with the Th'tremsi could be fun and interesting.  Shihab, I'm willing to rp a Council meeting for you if/when you desire, although both ooc and ic I don't think it would be necessary for you to leave the Order. |
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Post by Jedi Knight Mahir on Sept 1, 2014 21:13:23 GMT -8
Good, I'd hate to leave this awesome group of writers, was just stating that I would if I had to. Should be getting a post up Wednesday.... maybe as early as late Tuesday.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 22:35:22 GMT -8
Right, since we appear to have support from the majority of the Jedi and no one has disagreed with anything so far, it is time to get things codified. In this respect, and going off the points that have been raised so far, here is a draft that Myself and @lyokan "threw" together (please note, it is pretty word intensive, and Monte also has a simpler version I believe he will be chucking up as well), as another note, this thing is not law or what we have to use, it's just an idea:
Just to reiterate, this is not a decision that me and Monte have made on anyyone's behalf, it is something to start off with, purely a concept that you can decide that you like, or decide you hate. The idea behind this was to have a very CLEARLY define and DETAILED relationship, since that was something Crom'nen wanted us to have between the two groups.
For those of you who are like Mike Frantz, and don't like reading lot's, here is a summary:
The Jedi are Jedi, The Republic is the Republic.
We don't assume command of their forces, they don't assume command of ours.
If a trial comes up again, the accused side gets to investigate the claim first.
A Jedi emmisary, that is agreed upon by both The Jedi and The Republic, will sit on the Military Committee to act as our conduit for communication between the factions IC.
I imagine Mike will come through and further summarise it, most likely, but I figured I'd give it a shot, so as to make him work harder. (hehehe)
have at it...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 23:37:34 GMT -8
Negotiations with the Th'tremsi could be fun and interesting. I'll probably be dropping by the Jedi Temple very soon, so I look forward to it. Be well, |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 7:17:31 GMT -8
In regards to this article, I think that considering the Jedi as their own governing nation is the wrong way to go about this. It mentions that you're wanting to go back to the roots of the Jedi, which to mean means align yourselves to your canon counterparts, yet from reading this I've gathered that the Jedi are more akin to Sith than their canon counterparts. My reasoning here is that, ideally Jedi shouldn't control worlds nor have armies of their own to command, but with the wording in this article as it is currently, it's like the Jedi Lords of the New Sith Wars all over again. (Which sparked the Ruusan Reformations for both the Jedi and the Republic after the Sith were defeated.) Instead, I would make the recommendation to look at this situation like the separation of Church and State, rather than an agreement between to intergalactic nation states. Meaning that the Jedi would return to their Paramilitary roots, employing their own security guards to protect their temples and or academies/praxeums, and not leading their own (albeit impossibly funded) armies. I'll come up with something to add later on this week, but I just wanted to get this off my chest before both of our factions got hot and heavy with the direction of this article - I don't want to be comparing you to the Davinite's after all.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 12:50:19 GMT -8
As mentioned, this is a resolution of the same material... only this one is lest wordy as Rawkill put it.
Again these documents are only drafts based on the talk that Rawkill and I have seen on here... they are in no way codified at present
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 13:05:32 GMT -8
Greetings brother @vordaan and Well met,
the Idea of a pureblood species that correlated with the "Sith has intrigued me. back before the site crashed my team of Alts/NPCs featured a Zugurk Jedi named "Saarai". the concept behind the Th'tremsi also interests me, and i am interested to see what you do with it. once the semester settles into a consistant rhythm, i would like to rp with you whether that be on Yavin, Naboo, or anywhere else among the stars.
May peace be with you
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Ael Jade
The Jedi Order - Corellian Jedi Academy
Posts: 1,544
Affiliation: Corellian Jedi Order
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Post by Ael Jade on Sept 2, 2014 14:54:12 GMT -8
In regards to this article, I think that considering the Jedi as their own governing nation is the wrong way to go about this. It mentions that you're wanting to go back to the roots of the Jedi, which to mean means align yourselves to your canon counterparts, yet from reading this I've gathered that the Jedi are more akin to Sith than their canon counterparts. My reasoning here is that, ideally Jedi shouldn't control worlds nor have armies of their own to command, but with the wording in this article as it is currently, it's like the Jedi Lords of the New Sith Wars all over again. (Which sparked the Ruusan Reformations for both the Jedi and the Republic after the Sith were defeated.) Instead, I would make the recommendation to look at this situation like the separation of Church and State, rather than an agreement between to intergalactic nation states. Meaning that the Jedi would return to their Paramilitary roots, employing their own security guards to protect their temples and or academies/praxeums, and not leading their own (albeit impossibly funded) armies. I'll come up with something to add later on this week, but I just wanted to get this off my chest before both of our factions got hot and heavy with the direction of this article - I don't want to be comparing you to the Davinite's after all. I thought the church/state way was where we were heading... Also, if you've been around the Jedi lately, you'd know it's nothing like the Davinites. Polar opposite atm. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 16:37:58 GMT -8
I'm only pointing out that the terminology used to describe our future relationship in this article, seems more like the American forces currently deployed in Japan, than what the relationship between our two factions is supposed to be. Now, this is just me saying that I'd rather see you ladies and gents fit into the Paramilitary role that the Jedi were and have been since the foundation of the canon Republic.
With what is listed in both Monte's posts and Rawkill's, I'd be fine with - if not Champion these facts within the IC Senate. However, like I mentioned, the wording in regards to this Visiting Forces Agreement misconstrues the point trying to be made.
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