Kaine Australis
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Post by Kaine Australis on Dec 29, 2020 21:02:54 GMT -8
Hello friends and Whills,
Some discussion has gone on over the past few weeks on the board and in discord chat regarding this or that rule or restriction, and it's a matter on which i've been thinking a little. (Dangerous, i know.) For those who would like it put simply, what I am suggesting here is a modification of some of the basic restrictions into a tiered system for ease of understanding and minimising the potential for abuse while maximising freedom of RP.
I think we all know what constitutes a Superweapon, and where the players fail, the RPAs and Whills are there observing.
Unique - Banned tier, which would include anything in star wars that occurs only once, or is considered to be a Superweapon, or a power exhibited only once or twice; such as Vitiate sucking the Force from an entire planet. Unique items such as the Muur Talisman would also be in this tier. You cannot claim to have 'the' Darksaber, but you can have 'a' Darksaber.
Rare - To be restricted to player-only. Such things as full suits of beskar armour, master-level Force abilities, rare and powerful species, and other rare and powerful items. This would include species and items currently banned that do not fall into the Superweapon category. Your own versions of otherwise unique items, such as a holocron of a past character would be here.
Common - Everything else that doesn't fall into the above two categories.
Reasons for this is I feel that minimizing the specific things that are banned is a good way to go forward, and make the focus on individual players and their attitudes and actions, rather than the tools that might be misused. We are a good, mature community, and I think balance and fair play is best sorted by the community, and blanket bans should be a last resort.
Thoughts and ideas welcome and encouraged.
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Whill Shaman Dažbog
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Post by Whill Shaman Dažbog on Dec 30, 2020 5:17:36 GMT -8
I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but as I see it this is already how we regulate canon artifacts, superweapons, and species/culture specific items (like Beskar and Vong tech). I'm also assuming this is referring to the General Technology Rules and Miscellaneous Rules of Note page, where most of the information relevant to this proposal is located. Some of it is also alluded to in the Fleets and Armies board, how each troop or ground vehicle class is limited in their scope. We just don't put items individually into different classes...not exactly anyway. The way we do it is Restricted or Non-Restricted.
The general rule of thumb is to use best judgment, and when in doubt ask. Although as with any of the In-Universe rules, they only apply for Open RP. This is mostly for instances of unplanned invasions and fights/duels that are not agreed to beforehand; to prevent anyone from calling foul. Any of the rules regarding restrictions on any artifacts, force powers, metals, or technology are negotiable when in Closed RP: so long as everyone involved agrees. Also anything attained in Closed RP cannot be then transferred to an Open RP, unless everyone involved agrees (which would then make it a Closed or Semi-Closed RP anyway.)
Again, I apologize if I am misunderstanding. If I am, if you could elaborate I would be happy to read a fuller explanation. 
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The Fallen
The Dark Jedi Order
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Post by The Fallen on Dec 30, 2020 15:14:33 GMT -8
We are a good, mature community, and I think balance and fair play is best sorted by the community, and blanket bans should be a last resort. As it stands, most of the community, as far as I have seen, has already decided and agreed the balance and fair play is achieved best with the current restrictions that exist. A lot of what currently exist/remain as restrictions aren't just "oh, the Whills decided this and that's that". Things like the RPA and DO have provided the community with a better link to the Whills and opened a forum (which would honestly have been better suited as a venue for this discussion) in which writer's can discuss ideas and changes they would like to see be made. The one thing the existing restrictions ensure, is that someone doesn't just show up kitted out in a full set of beskar or cortosis armor and flying a fleet of Yuuzhan Vong Biotech ships. While someone could eventually get to that stage, it would require them to seek out a Mandalorian Beskar smith and convince them to agree to make them a set of armour in RP. During the course of which, they'd have to explain why the Smith would agree to forge armour for an outsider. Same goes with Yuuzhan Vong biotech. You have to put in RP with a Yuuzhan Vong writer to provide some evidence that they either willingly agreed to hand their tech over, or they forced said changes onto you IC. JvS is a Co-operative Writing Site. It's not a game to "win". Many of us are here to write stories with one another and provide an environment and setting which people can feed off of for their own stories. |
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Kaine Australis
The Vegemite Enclave
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Post by Kaine Australis on Dec 31, 2020 2:46:56 GMT -8
JvS is a Co-operative Writing Site. It's not a game to "win". Many of us are here to write stories with one another and provide an environment and setting which people can feed off of for their own stories. Not sure I said any different. I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but as I see it this is already how we regulate canon artifacts, superweapons, and species/culture specific items (like Beskar and Vong tech). I'm also assuming this is referring to the General Technology Rules and Miscellaneous Rules of Note page, where most of the information relevant to this proposal is located. Some of it is also alluded to in the Fleets and Armies board, how each troop or ground vehicle class is limited in their scope. We just don't put items individually into different classes...not exactly anyway. The way we do it is Restricted or Non-Restricted.
The general rule of thumb is to use best judgment, and when in doubt ask. Although as with any of the In-Universe rules, they only apply for Open RP. This is mostly for instances of unplanned invasions and fights/duels that are not agreed to beforehand; to prevent anyone from calling foul. Any of the rules regarding restrictions on any artifacts, force powers, metals, or technology are negotiable when in Closed RP: so long as everyone involved agrees. Also anything attained in Closed RP cannot be then transferred to an Open RP, unless everyone involved agrees (which would then make it a Closed or Semi-Closed RP anyway.)
Again, I apologize if I am misunderstanding. If I am, if you could elaborate I would be happy to read a fuller explanation. Fallen's explanation actually cuts to the very heart of what I am trying (poorly) to get at. The one thing the existing restrictions ensure, is that someone doesn't just show up kitted out in a full set of beskar or cortosis armor and flying a fleet of Yuuzhan Vong Biotech ships. While someone could eventually get to that stage, it would require them to seek out a Mandalorian Beskar smith and convince them to agree to make them a set of armour in RP. During the course of which, they'd have to explain why the Smith would agree to forge armour for an outsider. Same goes with Yuuzhan Vong biotech. You have to put in RP with a Yuuzhan Vong writer to provide some evidence that they either willingly agreed to hand their tech over, or they forced said changes onto you IC. Here he gives an example of what he says the existing rules are there to prevent, and then provides a vehicle for a player to RP their way around the preventative rule. Reverse engineering of alien species and technology has many examples in Legends, yet this is somehow banned. You are allowed be gifted such technology from another player. I feel making such things as YV tech for non YV or beskar for non mandos or chiss masers for non chiss available for individual players to RP or start out with, while still requiring a reasonable explanation as to how the character acquired the material/item is a better way to go about things. |
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The Fallen
The Dark Jedi Order
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Post by The Fallen on Dec 31, 2020 6:20:36 GMT -8
Yeah, but the difference is that under the existing restrictions, you actually have to put in the work and find someone amenable to your cause to agree to work with you. You make an actual story and write things out on the boards about what happened, whether it was something agreed upon or that was forced upon the character. With an explanation, you get a paragraph or two at most of someone summarizing "oh, I got this because of X reason after meeting X person". In terms of beskar and masers, Whill Shaman Dažbog or the other Whills can correct me on this, but the current regulations would permit someone to have a maser pistol or maser rifle starting out, or a piece of beskar (like a gauntlet or a helmet) with decent reasoning. But that could also be me misinterpreting the rules as well. |
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Whill Shaman Dažbog
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Post by Whill Shaman Dažbog on Dec 31, 2020 8:57:18 GMT -8
Here he gives an example of what he says the existing rules are there to prevent, and then provides a vehicle for a player to RP their way around the preventative rule.
The point of most of the restrictions we have is not to outright ban or completely prevent characters from owning certain items, if those items are gained in a meaningful way. It is to prevent people from claiming their new non-Mando character that has zero RP presence has, for example, a full suit of Beskar (or any other energy resistant metal) armor, or a non-YV starting out with full Vonduun crabshell armor. For a Mandalorian character it could be reasonable that they would have beskar armor, and some slack is given in this aspect. For a YV character, it would make sense that they would have the armor their species uses, if they are of the warrior caste at least.
A new character could be made with the explicit purpose of having an unfair, unearned, advantage over other characters in-Universe. That character could then, potentially, use that advantage to steamroll over members who did not decide to start their character out as the "bestest ever" or "strongest ever" or "had all the best things ever." The exception to this being, of course, if everyone who interacts with that OP character agrees to their abilities and such, making it a closed RP. But that OP character could not operate outside of Closed RP.
You can have YV tech. You can have Beskar as a non-Mando. You can have almost anything you want, you just need to write it out for it to be used in Open RP. As I said though, this really only becomes an issue when it comes to unplanned stories which can include fights, battles, invasions and such. This way a character CAN have their full beskar (or any other restricted items) in said fight without the other person saying they godmodded it into existence, and then bring it to our (the Whills) attention.
And in the case of receiving these items, someone other than you has to write giving it to your character. This prevents members from "gifting" themselves things from an NPC or throw-away character that is created only for the purpose of handing over tech, and then is forgotten or abandoned, never to be written as again.
These restrictions are to help prevent abuse in a similar vein to what happened in 1.0 and some of 1.5, with characters who had massively unfair...well...everything. Fleets of SSDs, rifting to invade planets in guerrilla attacks with baradium fission devices and then re-rifting to get away to safety, everyone having Ysalamir in all of their ships and riding on all of their troops and on themselves...I could go on. The point is, these things were magicked out of thin air. We do not want that, and so have put in place regulations with restricted items, BUT with ways to attain them LEGITIMATELY.Reverse engineering of alien species and technology has many examples in Legends, yet this is somehow banned. You are allowed be gifted such technology from another player.
For example, if you wanted to reverse engineer YV tech, an amphistaff for example, you would need to first to get in your possession the original YV tech, which would have to come from a YV character written by someone other than yourself (for it to be used in Open RP, anyway). The reverse engineering process (studying, prototyping, manufacturing) would, preferably, need to be as detailed as possible, in multiple posts, over a good amount of time (R&D isn't easy, after all).
Anything created from this story would essentially be a reskinned version of the tech it comes from. It would operate, for the most part, exactly like an amphistaff in every way. No better, and potentially a little weaker even. You would need to list it as behaving like an amphistaff on your character bio, but it could potentially be approved for use in Open RP.
This is akin to writing out the manufacturing process for a faction-themed blaster rifle. If you want an E-11 blaster rifle that looks different for use of your Faction or Character, you can. But it must be noted that it operates exactly the same as its canon counterpart.
The important things to note are how the original restricted technology to be studied is obtained and where it comes from. For it to be accepted for use in Open RP, it must be gained fair and square, and best judgment should be used when deciding how it is used. Don't expect to get away with arming all of your NPC troops with beskar or YV tech just because you wrote it out. It would be limited to a PC character for the sake of balance and fairness to prevent abuse. If you want your character to have 30 "faction themed" reverse engineered amphistaffs you can, but I'd classify that as Closed RP. Don't expect anyone to take you seriously.
This generally applies to all "custom" technology. For example, a bionic eye (I'm always watching). If there is an example of a bionic eye being used in Star Wars, you can then create your own "personal" version of that technology. But it cannot go beyond what the canon version is noted being capable of doing for it to be used in Open RP, and should be limited in use to PCs or important NPCs. For example if the canon version is noted as being able to see across the vision spectrum, it would be acceptable for the "personal" version to have those same features as well. Going beyond that and adding all sorts of additional features (canon or not) is where you would run into problems with it being accepted for Open RP, regardless of how well you write it out. Trying to create an amalgamation of several different items into one single item would be going too far as well, as that would be seen as an improvement upon canon tech, or the creation of new technology. Even for Star Wars tech there is a limit to what one item can do. You can only fit so much into something without compromising other aspects of it and then having to compensate by adding MORE things into it, which would be considered creating new technology and against the rules.I feel making such things as YV tech for non YV or beskar for non mandos or chiss masers for non chiss available for individual players to RP or start out with, while still requiring a reasonable explanation as to how the character acquired the material/item is a better way to go about things.
The biggest exception is YV tech, which needs to be obtained as laid out in the rules for use in Open RP.
Not everyone wants to start out as a young padawan and work their way up. Some characters are older starting out, and it would make sense for them to have more "equipment" than someone who is writing as a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed youngling. |
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