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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Dec 4, 2020 4:45:01 GMT -8
Hi folks, so a recent discussion over on the Corellian Coalition Discord Server sparked something of an idea. The premise of the discussion involved the fact that the First Order has the TIE/D Defender, the TIE/D Defender Elite, the TIE/vn Space Superiority Fighter (Silencer), and the TIE/wi Modified Interceptor (Whisper). Ships which are all canon vessels and that no other faction really has an answer to. And under the current limitations of the MAD system, can;t even be matched by Custom vessels. HOWEVER...The thought and suggestion was put forward that a Faction would be allowed one ship design to match the Silencer/Defender. This would mean a single Custom design (unless you could find a Canon vessel that would match the Silencer/Defender) which would be subject to certain stipulations. As it currently exists, the First Order self regulates itself that the Defender and Silencer are limited to 1 Squadron (12 ships) per Player, and the Whisper (modified) and Defender Elite are limited to Personal Usage. What the proposed system/change would involve is taking this self imposed limitation and making it "official", so to speak. This limitation would then be echoed across such that factions over a certain size would be allowed to create a single design that would then be limited to just 1 squadron per Player. Some initial thoughts put out there would be that for a faction to qualify in making their own unique faction starfighter, they'd need 5 members minimum. This would allow not just particularly large groups like the Corellian Coalition to put forth a design, but also groups like the Mandalorians, the Diarchy, the Quarrens, etc, etc to also do so. Another note, was that groups that were allied/tied together (like the First Order and the Knights of Ren, and the Corellian Coalition and the Knights of Karabor) would/could share their Faction Starfighter. There would be no stipulation that factions would have to associate, but the option would exist for factions to do so and make use of the existing design. Hopefully this all makes sense, but if you require any clarification please don't hesitate to ask. From here, we would be looking to get everyone's thoughts and opinions on the suggestion, so we could formulate a proposal to put to the Whills. |
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Post by Jenia Kasalle on Dec 4, 2020 5:05:27 GMT -8
I actually like the idea, though I'm not sure why the regular TIE Defender is still on the list. Given its stats it's actually on par with other First Order TIE lines, lacking even 1 point of agility compared to the standart FO fighter and ships like the TIE Harbinger and the RZ-2 A-Wing Interceptor are nearly on the same level as the TIE Defender (as people easily forget that the Offense and Defense stats alone won't make these ships stronger or weaker, if your opponent can outmaneuver or outspeed the enemy vessel in a dog fight). I even realized also, that the TIE X, a custom fighter of the FO is in terms of stats better than the regular TIE Defender actually. ^^ Perhaps reading there more into the stats than I should, but for me the TIE Defender alone doesn't really appeal to me as such a strong starfighter, which requires a limit, as you could easily craft a custom TIE fighter, which is on par with it's stats. Can definitly agree though on the other three, given that they're stealth fighters + also go over the regular point limit, as Canon submissions supposedly can do. I agree though that it might be good to have a starfighter category, where limits are set or in general an option on databank entries, where within the submission a limit can be set upon an individual shiptype per person (given that the RPA could also suggest there, whether a limit would be required or not). I currently have the same thing going on at the Quarren Dominion, where I would actually limit the active use of Gulomi-Class Dropships to a maximum of 8, as technically you could invade other planets undetected with those crafts (and an invasion force of 1,600 troops, no matter their specialization , can be quite deadly, if utilized right - see the current RP scenario on Thyferra, where we can logically assume that the Gulomis were key here to bypass its orbital defenses, so that the Cultists could build up a base there unnoticed). Therefore, I would welcome at least an option, where limits can be put on stealth vessels at least, given that Stealth fighters are quite hard to fight and much more worth than their regular point value would indicate. |
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Kaine Australis
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Post by Kaine Australis on Dec 4, 2020 5:14:10 GMT -8
I think this can be covered under the current limitations;
Stealth craft/fighters are limited to Unique craft, and no one is allowed to have entire fleets or fighter wings of stealth craft. This ties into a discussion I had with Nicademus about a stealth bomber design.
I think a squadron is probably the most anyone should have of a stealth fighter, and probably only a single capship.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Dec 4, 2020 5:46:37 GMT -8
I mean, technically there are no limitations, on self imposed systems by several factions. This would more aim to create said limitations as a universal thing.
The Defender was, at one point, up for discussion in increasing its stats across the board to all 4's. It's something the DO is planning to revisit shortly, to bring it up to speed on where its stats should rest.
That all said, what would be your thoughts on how factions might qualify for setting up a unique design of their own in the vein of these existing... "super" fighters so to speak? The limitation would apply whether a ship had stealth equipment or not. It's more addressing that 3 of these vessels are around 16-18 points (with the Whisper being 21, but also heavily restricted to personal use only and kind of a "war crime").
Maybe we could set up a category known as Super Starfighters (kind of as an extension of the Light and Heavy categories), wherein it would be for starfighter submissions that are 16 points and above?
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Post by Jenia Kasalle on Dec 4, 2020 6:10:50 GMT -8
I mean, technically there are no limitations, on self imposed systems by several factions. This would more aim to create said limitations as a universal thing. The Defender was, at one point, up for discussion in increasing its stats across the board to all 4's. It's something the DO is planning to revisit shortly, to bring it up to speed on where its stats should rest. That all said, what would be your thoughts on how factions might qualify for setting up a unique design of their own in the vein of these existing... "super" fighters so to speak? The limitation would apply whether a ship had stealth equipment or not. It's more addressing that 3 of these vessels are around 16-18 points (with the Whisper being 21, but also heavily restricted to personal use only and kind of a "war crime"). Maybe we could set up a category known as Super Starfighters (kind of as an extension of the Light and Heavy categories), wherein it would be for starfighter submissions that are 16 points and above? Noted, wasn't aware of that and thought the current stats might already be the ones onto which was agreed on. As for the category, maybe call it "Specialized Starfighters" or "Elite Starfighters", to reflect the category better. I would definitly approve, given that these vessels are outstanding and might need more clarification on how many you can use + who can actually use them, if they are faction-affiliated. |
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Kaine Australis
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Post by Kaine Australis on Dec 4, 2020 6:30:39 GMT -8
I think something in the Faction Allowances about one squadron of Faction Starfighters which are allowed stealth/super stats would cover it.
Makes sense that only major organizations could fund the creation of such things and field groups of them.
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Luxeria
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Post by Luxeria on Dec 4, 2020 6:34:39 GMT -8
As the one who proposed the idea, it certainly has my support. Something I didn't get the opportunity to mention in chat as I was at work, was looking mostly at the Silencer and Defender Elite and fully go over its stats to ensure it is where we want it to be. Afterward, a point limit is given based upon these designs so that they all remain comparable depending on what a faction chooses to create. Honestly, considering that I don't think anyone is actually attempting to use the Tie Modified Whisper, and shouldn't be considered into it. Not sure if the stats have been updated on the Wookie, but by what we knew, it far surpassed nearly anything in existence in terms of every statistic. Only the heaviest of bombers and heavy strike fighters could match it in offense. As for the Defender, it was added to the databank when nothing could break the system. Ever since canon ships could, we have been trying to get it bumped. To be honest, I always felt that the Defender Elite should have only been limited to a squad and not just a personal ship. Sure, it has a couple of cannons more than the Silencer, but by new lore, if I read correctly, the Defender Elite basically served as the precursor to the Silencer, in which the Silencer is at least faster as well as has the stealth field generator. As for limiting stealth fighters to personal use, I would disagree. If you are referring to the stealth bomber you are seeking to submit, it is because you have nearly every form of stealth tech that can be used. Canon and Custom submissions thus far either have sensor jammers styled stealth fields or a cloak. Simple scanner jammers and the like I don't feel should be limited. They have a tactical advantage, but not a total advantage as you can still see the fighter coming and can counter. Fighters that have a cloak such as the TIE Phantom and the Coalition SB-7 Delta-Wing Starfighter I feel should be limited to a single squadron. |
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Kaine Australis
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Post by Kaine Australis on Dec 4, 2020 6:37:08 GMT -8
If you are referring to the stealth bomber you are seeking to submit, it is because you have nearly every form of stealth tech that can be used. Canon and Custom submissions thus far either have sensor jammers styled stealth fields or a cloak. Simple scanner jammers and the like I don't feel should be limited. I agree entirely.  |
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Post by Nicademus Delvardus IV on Dec 4, 2020 7:11:38 GMT -8
As the one who proposed the idea, it certainly has my support. Something I didn't get the opportunity to mention in chat as I was at work, was looking mostly at the Silencer and Defender Elite and fully go over its stats to ensure it is where we want it to be. Afterward, a point limit is given based upon these designs so that they all remain comparable depending on what a faction chooses to create. Among its other works, the Databank is looking into re-examining the stats of all submissions. So eventually, we will get to those starfighters. But, likely, if this gets approval by the Whills, it will be in a timely manner. |
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Dec 4, 2020 7:42:03 GMT -8
As the one who proposed the idea, it certainly has my support. Something I didn't get the opportunity to mention in chat as I was at work, was looking mostly at the Silencer and Defender Elite and fully go over its stats to ensure it is where we want it to be. Afterward, a point limit is given based upon these designs so that they all remain comparable depending on what a faction chooses to create. Honestly, considering that I don't think anyone is actually attempting to use the Tie Modified Whisper, and shouldn't be considered into it. Not sure if the stats have been updated on the Wookie, but by what we knew, it far surpassed nearly anything in existence in terms of every statistic. Only the heaviest of bombers and heavy strike fighters could match it in offense. As for the Defender, it was added to the databank when nothing could break the system. Ever since canon ships could, we have been trying to get it bumped. To be honest, I always felt that the Defender Elite should have only been limited to a squad and not just a personal ship. Sure, it has a couple of cannons more than the Silencer, but by new lore, if I read correctly, the Defender Elite basically served as the precursor to the Silencer, in which the Silencer is at least faster as well as has the stealth field generator. As for limiting stealth fighters to personal use, I would disagree. If you are referring to the stealth bomber you are seeking to submit, it is because you have nearly every form of stealth tech that can be used. Canon and Custom submissions thus far either have sensor jammers styled stealth fields or a cloak. Simple scanner jammers and the like I don't feel should be limited. They have a tactical advantage, but not a total advantage as you can still see the fighter coming and can counter. Fighters that have a cloak such as the TIE Phantom and the Coalition SB-7 Delta-Wing Starfighter I feel should be limited to a single squadron. I whole heartedly agree that reviewing and locking in the numbers for the Defender Elite and Silencer and then using their counts as the basis for what others could make would be a superb idea. With regards to Stealth fighters, I think limiting them to a single squadron (as they are currently being self limited by the FO and CC) is restriction enough. And even then, those only tend to be vessels with Cloaking Devices. I don't believe we've previously imposed limitations on stealth fittings. |
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Post by Kaine Australis on Dec 4, 2020 7:51:54 GMT -8
While we're on the subject of modifying the databank/rules. Can I suggest that Strengths and Weaknesses be added somewhere to custom submissions?
I feel this would help immensely when it comes to balance and helping everyone to understand it.
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Luxeria
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Post by Luxeria on Dec 4, 2020 8:04:34 GMT -8
While we're on the subject of modifying the databank/rules. Can I suggest that Strengths and Weaknesses be added somewhere to custom submissions? I feel this would help immensely when it comes to balance and helping everyone to understand it. That can easily be added into the description of the craft. I intermingled it with my description when creating the Dark Illumination, though it can easily be added as extra notes for easier and quicker reading. |
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Dec 4, 2020 13:51:33 GMT -8
In regards to the Strengths/Weaknesses topic, that is indeed something that should/would be part of the description area if such things are not immediately obvious based on how a ship has their stats set up. And even then as part of your description of the vessel you’d mention “oh well it has stronger stats here, but had to have reduction here because of this”
However I’d ask further discussion on such a matter be brought up separately just to ensure this thread remains on topic about Faction Starfighter Designs and gathering further opinions/ideas on how to implement it.
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Post by Zion Morviael [RETIRED] on Dec 16, 2020 2:02:31 GMT -8
Without further discussion seeming to happen, I believe we've hit a point where we can proceed with submitting this up for consideration. I'll get a write up down based on what has been discussed here and go from there.
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